How Grover Cleveland’s Grandson Feels About Donald Trump Becoming the Second U.S. President to Serve Nonconsecutive Terms

Donald Trump is often described as unprecedented, but in winning a non-consecutive second term—thus occupying two numerical slots in the presidential order—he has a significant antecedent: Grover Cleveland, the 22nd and 24th president. 

For more than a century, Cleveland, the first Democrat to occupy the White House during the postbellum period, enjoyed the distinction of being America’s only president to serve non-consecutive terms. With Trump’s reelection, that’s about to change—and one New Hampshire-based history buff has a unique perspective on that development: Cleveland’s grandson, George Cleveland. (Yes, grandson: born in 1952, George never met his famous grandpa, who served as president in the late 1800s and had children late in life.) 

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In an interview, Cleveland, 72, told TIME about Grover’s unusual presidency and why he isn’t feeling great about Trump being compared to his grandfather.

Read more: Donald Trump, Grover Cleveland, and the History of Winning Back the White House

TIME: Your grandfather Grover Cleveland is getting quite a lot of attention in the wake of Trump’s win. How does that feel, as a direct descendant?

CLEVELAND: Well, the thought has been brewing for a while. Although I never really considered we’d get to this point. I think the most unfortunate part is that the question “Who is the only non-consecutive president of the United States?” was one of the most popular Grover-related [trivia] questions. Now we’ve lost that. But he’s still the first.

That’s what Cleveland is best remembered for. Are there other aspects of his legacy that people should know him for? 

Well, I don’t know how many people carry $1,000 bills in their wallet, but he’s on there. Beyond that, Grover was kind of a quiet president. He sat down and did the job, dealing with what was in front of him. I don’t think he had a really broad view of things ideologically, like Teddy Roosevelt a few years later. He just hunkered down to deal with, “What is the money problem?” The patronage system was certainly something he was violently opposed to and may have been one of the factors that caused him not to get reelected [in 1888]. 

It’s rare for presidents to mount a reelection campaign after being voted out of the White House. There must be some sort of defiance that Trump and Grover Cleveland share. 

I think the motivation may have been different. Grover really… he… I’m trying to say this in a really not Trump-negative way. And right now that’s difficult for me [laughs]. 

Grover had work that he wanted to get finished and I don’t know if that was really the driving force behind Donald Trump. …

It sounds like you’re not a Trump guy.

That would be a safe thing to say.

So how do you feel that Grover Cleveland’s name is now invoked as being a predecessor to Trump? 

I’ve gotten used to it now, but in the beginning I definitely wanted to reach for a Tums every time I heard it. It is what it is. Whether I like it or not, or anybody else likes it or not, Trump won the popular vote and he won the Electoral vote.

Read more: These Presidents Won the Electoral College — But Not the Popular Vote

What have the last six months been like for you as it became increasingly clear that Trump might actually pull this off and people were invoking Grover’s name?

Well, I didn’t get overexcited about it because, I mean, I’m just a guy. Like it or not, presidential descendants have to get used to the fact that their predecessors’ names and acts are gonna be floated around under a 21st-century microscope, which sometimes is fair and sometimes is not.

There is a group, the Society of Presidential Descendants. We have an unwritten rule that we don’t really rag on other presidents. They were duly elected and some did what we now look at to be a great job, some were perhaps less than stellar. 

That sounds like a fascinating group. Do you guys have conventions?

Oh, yeah! We don’t have a secret handshake yet, which I’ve been pushing for. But as I like to tell people, we sit around and talk about all the UFO papers that are hidden that we’ve seen.

You’re being serious?

[laughs] No. The subject has come up, once or twice. I will admit that. 

Do you know who killed JFK?

[laughs] Yeah, but we can’t talk about that. No, but I believe the first reference to a UFO was made by Thomas Jefferson regarding something sighted in the sky over Louisiana. The modern presidential descendants are always being bugged about it.

Grover Cleveland was president in the 1880s and 1890s. People must find it hard to believe that his grandson is living today.

I think there’s only three living 19th century presidents’ grandchildren: me, my sister Frances, and believe it or not, John Tyler still has a grandson, Harrison, who’s alive. I never met Harrison. But I met his brother, Lyon, who was a good guy.

Do you think Trump knows who Grover Cleveland was?

He may now. He had to walk by his picture in the White House. If he was like a lot of other people who got Cleveland confused with Taft, because they were both big, portly guys, I don’t know [laughs].

What do you think was Grover Cleveland’s greatest accomplishment? 

Oh, God. It was a lot of little things. He favored a large investment in the United States Navy—which turned out to be a real godsend when the First World War came to be. Our ships were way more modernized than many other places.

There are also aspects of Cleveland’s presidency that seem less flattering to his legacy. He expanded the Chinese Exclusion Act—

Ah, took the words right out of my mouth. I was reading something about all this immigration stuff, and I started reading about the Chinese Exclusion Act, and I said, “My God, this is barbaric!” You would like if your forebear was a little more tolerant and liberal in that area, but he wasn’t. 

Grover Cleveland entered office as a bachelor, didn’t he? And married during his presidency? 

Yes. The first two years of his presidency, his sister Rose Cleveland served as—you can’t really call it First Lady, most people refer to it as White House hostess. And, sidenote, she was the first LGBTQ+ person in that position. 

Are you concerned about the direction the country is heading in?

Yes. The whole concept of Project 2025 just terrifies me. But, like I said, it’s what we asked for. Or at least over half the country. As with other presidents, like Grover Cleveland after his first term, if you don’t like it, vote him out. Of course, Trump can’t be voted back in, because you can’t do three terms.

Well, he might try.

Oh yeah, he may just not leave! 

One positive thing we can say for Grover Cleveland is he did accept the results of the 1888 election and left office willingly. 

That’s right—and with dignity. And I don’t think they stole anything. At least, if they have, I haven’t found it yet. It must be in the same place where all the UFO papers are.